Curse

Rey Lentless · Aug 09, 2005, 06:09 PM // 18:09

I didn't see a nature's renewal thread in this particular forum, so I'm going to go ahead and post this.

I think it's a pretty common opinion that NR is the most broken skill in the game right now, so I'm not going to get into supporting why it needs to be changed.. I think most of us would already agree it should be.

NR should have no initial effect, just like the other spirits. Right now, once nature's down.. it's done it's damage, even at level 0. That's the broken part, and that needs to be taken away. Raising casting time is still a good reason to use this skill, and that should be all it does. It should remove nothing.

I would also change chilblains and well of the profane. These are the only other 2 skills capable of removing things like spellbreaker and obsidian flesh right now, and they're overpriced. They should be reduced to 15 energy.

Damon Windwalker · Aug 09, 2005, 06:22 PM // 18:22

Enough with teh $%^#& NR threads!!!

Rey Lentless · Aug 09, 2005, 06:37 PM // 18:37

There hasn't been one in this forum.

And I don't consider it a problem. It should be glaringly clear it needs to be changed by the devs, so when they look at a forum, they should see dozens of NR threads.

MCS · Aug 09, 2005, 06:42 PM // 18:42

Why are you making a suggestion? The devs already know :\.

Maybe make it cut the remaining duration of any enchantments cast in half?

Rey Lentless · Aug 09, 2005, 07:04 PM // 19:04

No, it should have no immediate effect. Spirits should inherently only have an effect while they're up. Not some effect that takes place immediately when it's put down.

bobrath · Aug 09, 2005, 07:13 PM // 19:13

No threads in this forum?

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=40493
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=41068
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=42467
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=43568

Immeadiate effect is fine. It removes all hexes and enchantments from *both* teams. The problem comes from repeated rapid applications of NR. Take away the ability of for one person to place NR over and over again and the skill becomes balanced again.

- Make it Elite to eliminate it from being paired with Oath Shot.
- Prevent Oath Shot from affecting the recharge time on spirits.

Two easy changes that leave the skill as it is but don't allow for the extreme abuse.

Rey Lentless · Aug 09, 2005, 07:31 PM // 19:31

Searching for nature's renewal in this forum as a topic rendered no results for me. It's now showing this and the first thread you listed for me.

No spirits should have an immediate effect. Their duration and life are affected by level, why should the most powerful component of the skill be irrelevant to the skill level?

No other spirits have an immediate effect, and neither should this one. They should be spammable to allow people to keep up their spirits, not to get repeatable results that show up with each laying of a spirit.

Damon Windwalker · Aug 09, 2005, 07:57 PM // 19:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobrath

No threads in this forum?

Not to mention the countless threads that "Nerf NR" activists have dragged the debate into...

Lebdan · Aug 09, 2005, 08:01 PM // 20:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobrath

No threads in this forum?

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=40493
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=41068
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=42467
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=43568

Immeadiate effect is fine. It removes all hexes and enchantments from *both* teams. The problem comes from repeated rapid applications of NR. Take away the ability of for one person to place NR over and over again and the skill becomes balanced again.

- Make it Elite to eliminate it from being paired with Oath Shot.
- Prevent Oath Shot from affecting the recharge time on spirits.

Two easy changes that leave the skill as it is but don't allow for the extreme abuse.

I kinda found a way to recharge NR without Oath Shot. Determined Shot also recharges if it misses. Just make a R/Me with Signet of Midnight, which will blind himself and use Determined Shot. Voila, recharged.
Though Signet of Midnight is Elite. If they make NR Elite too, I think there is still a way around with Determined Shot.

bobrath · Aug 09, 2005, 08:14 PM // 20:14

Try searching on "natures" or "NR". Not sure why the phrase nature's renewal isn't picking up... maybe the single quote?

Anyway, some of the other spirits have immediate affects, they're just not as visible:
Fertile Season - Grants every player and mob an instant 50-474 hp and 24 armor
Symbiosis - Each enchantment a player or mob has they instantly gain 27-125 health

It would be intersting to know if someone is in middle of casting a spell as Quickening Zephy activates... does the skill recharge normally or not? (Same question for Energizing Wind).

Double Post Text:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lebdan

I kinda found a way to recharge NR without Oath Shot. Determined Shot also recharges if it misses. Just make a R/Me with Signet of Midnight, which will blind himself and use Determined Shot. Voila, recharged.
Though Signet of Midnight is Elite. If they make NR Elite too, I think there is still a way around with Determined Shot.

Determined shot only recharges attack skills. So it wouldn't touch NR.

Maltare · Aug 09, 2005, 10:59 PM // 22:59

Fine, my thread was closed, I didn't want my post to get lost was the only thing, because I thought it was a really good idea, so I'll post it here I suppose. A little annoying, but fair I guess.

I really don't think that this skill is THAT overpowered. Yes it changes the entire way certain battles are fought, but so does a prot monk, so does QZ, so does 4 Elementalists. Here are some of my speculations as to what would happen if only NR was changed and it was made significantly different, they're neither good nor bad, just speculations, you can decide for yourself how to take them.

1. Smite groups would dominate most fights.
2. Life Bonds and other -1 energy regen enchants would come back into more use.
3. Hex skills would come back into more use by mesmers and necromancers.

Those are the big ones that I see as of now. But on to how I would change the skill. Since personally I don't see what everyone's problem with it is, I'm going to preface that I would only change it very slightly. It already has a 5 second cast time, and 60 second recharge, so it's interuptable, and unless they use thier elite slot to oath shot, takes a while to recast, even with QZ. A common counter to QZ btw, that for some reason I don't see often with groups that dont run it, is Energizing wind. So, to change the skill...

Skill Name: Nature's Renewal
Description: Create a level 5 Spirit. For creatures within range, all "Enchantments" and "Hexes" are removed. For 60 seconds, Enchantments and Hexes take twice as long to cast. This Spirit dies after 60 seconds. (50% Chance of Failure with Wilderness Survival of 9 or less.)
Energy Cost: 5
Casting Time: 5
Recharge Time: 60 seconds
Skill Type: Nature Ritual
Linked Attribute: Wilderness Survival

Weezer_Blue · Aug 09, 2005, 11:23 PM // 23:23

That nerf would make it nearly useless. I can't imagine ever using Renewal if it didn't take some spells off the field. Oh boy... Takes twice as long to cast. That's incredibly bad.

It would be better if it were something like...

Nature's Renewal:

Description: 30-70% chance to remove each enchantment/hex. For next __ seconds, enchantments and hexes take twice as long to cast.

Then just make it so that you can't have more than 1 spirit within the radius of the same spirit. This solves the problem perfectly, as keeping your attribute low would make it less useful, but making it high would decrease it's spammability since it would live longer. These changes could really hlpe, IMO.

Aniewiel · Aug 09, 2005, 11:26 PM // 23:26

What would be really neat would be if someone cast a 2nd (or 100th) NR within X radius of the first one, BOTH would disappear.

Probably not doable but interesting.

Weezer_Blue · Aug 09, 2005, 11:28 PM // 23:28

That or you could just make NR Elite so you can't spam it with Oath Shot... I mean, really: Greater Conflagration is near useless unless in specific builds, and isn't as good by any measure, and it's elite.

Zeru · Aug 09, 2005, 11:34 PM // 23:34

2x enchant/hex cast time is already extremely good.

Try running an order spammer when both OOP/OOV take 4 seconds; doesn't work. Say bye bye to water eles when it's up, same with the curses line and many other skills.

It's pretty simple: if you don't see how badly NR screws up pvp, you don't understand pvp well at all. There are a plethora of reasons in the other threads on why if you want to learn more.

Maltare · Aug 10, 2005, 12:04 AM // 00:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weezer_Blue

That nerf would make it nearly useless. I can't imagine ever using Renewal if it didn't take some spells off the field. Oh boy... Takes twice as long to cast. That's incredibly bad.

You completely 100% didn't read it correctly.

Please don't make me out to be fool like that again, and I would appreicate it if you would retract or edit your post. That's very upsetting to me

.

For creatures within range, all "Enchantments" and "Hexes" are removed. It's right there. Read it again.

Maltare · Aug 10, 2005, 12:16 AM // 00:16

Okay, now I guess I'll explain my nerf.

Skill Name: Nature's Renewal
Description: Create a level 5 Spirit. For creatures within range, all "Enchantments" and "Hexes" are removed. For 60 seconds, Enchantments and Hexes take twice as long to cast. This Spirit dies after 60 seconds. (50% Chance of Failure with Wilderness Survival of 9 or less.)
Energy Cost: 5
Casting Time: 5
Recharge Time: 60 seconds
Skill Type: Nature Ritual
Linked Attribute: Wilderness Survival

I'll start at the top and go down, and only discuss the changes.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
"For 60 seconds, Enchantments and Hexes take twice as long to cast. This Spirit dies after 60 seconds."

This change makes it more difficult to spam NR. It makes it even more difficult to spam FS. 60 second lasting time no matter what makes it so that (unless running zephyr) you can only have 1 up at any given time per character. And with zephyr there is only approx. a 15 second overlap.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
(50% Chance of Failure with Wilderness Survival of 9 or less.)

This is the key. Many good groups who have renewal spamming, don't have a designated spirit spammer(unlike what most people think). What they have are many people casting it at intervals from several differnt players. An example would be a Me/R, R/Me, W/R. Say those are the 3 characters spamming renewal. Well, as you can probably guess, the only character that's going to have 10 wilderness survival is the R/Me. And sometimes not even then. My personal ranger build has only 9 wilderness survival.

Now, the Me/R and W/R with my changes would probably be changed to something other than renewal spamming because they would have a 50% chance to fail in thier cast of it. And, it would force the R/Me to up its wilderness survival to cast it effectively.

Now, some of you will say that there's still spirit spammers, and yes thier are, but as most of you know spirit spammers are just that, spammers. All they do is cast spirits and for those of you experienced in pvp you also know that's a lot of damage lost. So, if someone really wants to spam renewal, my change would make them work at it, instead of just easily casting a level 2 or 3 Nature's renewal for the enchantment removal and double cast time.

I hope that sheads a little more light on my proposed change.

Weezer_Blue · Aug 10, 2005, 12:17 AM // 00:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maltare

You completely 100% didn't read it correctly.

Please don't make me out to be fool like that again, and I would appreicate it if you would retract or edit your post. That's very upsetting to me

.

For creatures within range, all "Enchantments" and "Hexes" are removed. It's right there. Read it again.

I meant the original poster, not you. I hardly glanced yours.

Maltare · Aug 10, 2005, 12:19 AM // 00:19

Doh, I appologize, I simply assumed since it was immediately following my post.

Rey Lentless · Aug 10, 2005, 07:06 AM // 07:06

The other spirits don't have a repeatable effect. You don't put down 2 fertile seasons to get twice as many hitpoints, you put it down and if there are any others.. it's just covering for the first spirit if it's taken down. So no, none of the other spirits have a repeatable immediate effect.

There's no reason NR should either. The balance should come in the amount of time added to cast times. It should remove nothing.